Orion Propellant in EX Talk - Experimental Rocketry Forum

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Orion Propellant

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SmokeinJoe	Orion Propellant	Lead	[-]
Member Posts: 1653 (06/23/08 2:31 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Remove this ad Well my Oxamide propellant project in the works has finally resulted in the first of several test firings this last weekend. I all ready know I'll have to adjust the liquids in the mix. The physical properties of the grain aren't nearly as desirable as other mixes I've done. I used .3% Tepanol but the 200AP really wants to pop out and the grain structure seams a bit weak even with .3% castor oil. I think I'll back down on the 2.5~% DOA. Other than that, it's pretty close to what I was wanting. I'll know more after a higher Kn firing to see if the burn rate is where I want it. It's a bit too slow at this Kn for what I want. This is also a chance to try out the new/used digital camera I have now. Thanks Dad! I should have read the instructions first before taking this blurred photo. The next one will be taken with a 1/1000 shutter speed, ISO100, and F-3.4 to 5. any suggestions here I'll gladly take. This shot was overexposed. And John, no surprise here, it looks a lot like your F13. Test #1 was a 3g 54mm (3.0625" x .9375" cores, .42" web) .401" nozzle Kn 248-262. 444.5g of propellant, max Pc was 577psia. At this Pc it's yielding 2.13 newtons per gram. Test 2 & 3 will be 4g 38mm tests, test 4 a 6g 38mm, and hopefully test 5 will be a full 3g 54mm test above a max Kn of 300. Then I'll tweak the liquids and make a second batch for longer motor testing. PS, You know the song Orion from "Master of Puppets"? It's a long kick ass song with no lyrics. See the similarities? Last Edited By: SmokeinJoe 06/23/08 2:33 PM. Edited 1 time.
jsdemar		#1	[-]
Member Posts: 323 (06/23/08 8:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Very nice! How much metal? Was the AP bimodal? What percent solids?
SmokeinJoe		#2	[-]
Member Posts: 1658 (06/25/08 7:58 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	8.1% Al 60.7% 200AP 13% 90AP 2.1% Oxamide .1% Lamp Black, maybe to help UV preheating of the grain. No idea if it really helps with this much Al. 84% Solids Test 2 was a 4g 38mm, 2.125" x .75" cores, .235" web, Max Pc was 660psia. Still a very low Pc. This Oxamide is amazing stuff! Test 3 I think I'll run up to 320Kn. I love your Thrust Curve Tool as well John. Thanks so much for sharing it with the world! It's such a wonderful and usefull tool. The burn rate picked up a little bit, but not too much. This pic was way under exposed. It was overcast and late in the evening, but by no means was it dark outside. I'll try to get a better pic this weekend. Last Edited By: SmokeinJoe 06/25/08 8:14 PM. Edited 2 times.
jsdemar		#3	[-]
Member Posts: 326 (06/25/08 10:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That's a great flame for a 38mm! You're right, the lamp black probably isn't doing much of anything. -John D.
EKosoof		#4	[-]
Member Posts: 51 (06/26/08 12:30 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	LOVE the name! Oh, and the flame is pretty cool too. Ethan
jmac		#5	[-]
Member Posts: 66 (06/26/08 1:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Scott, looking good man.
SmokeinJoe		#6	[-]
Member Posts: 1662 (06/26/08 4:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks guys. I forgot, the main reason I added the lampblack was for a curative marker, but it only helped a litte in that reguard. More to come this weekend.
SmokeinJoe	Orion Tests	#7	[-]
Member Posts: 1664 (06/27/08 8:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well I got Test #3 done after work today. I used the same .365" nozzle as test 2 and the same .75" cores, only this time the 4 grains where 2.28125" long, which set the Kn range from 298 to 312. It was acctually 9.3125" of propellant at 180.7g. So everything was constant except for the amount of propellant and Kn range/Pc Max Pc was roughly 750psia. This stuff seems to be very very tame. The photo was a bit closer this time, still a bit dark though. If we don't have a monsoon all day Saturday I'll test the 6g 38mm with tiny cores. Jeff, preliminary estimates put your long 54mm motor around an L-1600 with a 2.2sec burn time and 3500-3600Ns, pushing your 54 Mongoose to mach 2 to 2.4 and 20-24K'. John, one suggestion. Could you allow for the Thrust Curve Tool image to show the propellant weight along side all the other information? That would be good I think. Does ANYONE have ANY Oxamide that they would part with and sell? PLEASE!
mach66		#8	[-]
Member Posts: 716 (06/28/08 8:56 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ncie job Scott!! Nice looking flames, good performing motors and good testing. What do you think this stuff would do without the Oxamide? It seems that you can push this stuff pretty far. Brent
jmac		#9	[-]
Member Posts: 69 (06/28/08 10:14 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Jeff, preliminary estimates put your long 54mm motor around an L-1600 with a 2.2sec burn time and 3500-3600Ns, pushing your 54 Mongoose to mach 2 to 2.4 and 20-24K'. Awesome, I plan on painting it next weekend. All left to do is build the tower and she will be ready to fly.
SmokeinJoe	Orion Test #4	#10	[-]
Member Posts: 1665 (06/28/08 7:11 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Remove this ad Test 4 went great today! 6g 38mm, 2.125" grains with .4375" cores, .365" nozzle, T/P ratio of .7 and a mass flux of 2.5. Everything did just what I wanted it to. Delivered Isp came up and no huge erosive spike. It was erosive, but only showed it as a hard on with a regressive burn and a steady tail off, even though Burnsim showed it to be slightly progressive. Peak Pc was 893psia right off the bat. I estimate Pc with a normal neutral burn to be around 800-810 at a Kn of 330. Now for the really good news. I plugged the 1st 3 burns into Propel Balistic using burn times given by John's excelent Thrust Curve Tool and got some dead nuts accurate a & n #'s. The only tweaking needed is with the Isp* and the nozzle flow efficiency. The only thing that's a bit off is the Pc, but I figure that the sims are on the low side due to nozzle slag build up on the acctual tests. Other than that, everything else is within 3% of acctual test data. One question though. To get the specific heat # from Guipep, do you use the Cp/Cv values from the chamber or exhaust? I'm using the chamber #, that made the most sence to me. Now to make up a second batch and tweak the liquids a bit, and make some grains for the 38/960 and 1200 cases. I haven't even ran any #'s for these cases yet, but I'm pumped to see what the 1200 will do On a side note all three 38mm tests used the same 6g case. Last Edited By: SmokeinJoe 06/28/08 7:16 PM. Edited 1 times.
mach66		#11	[-]
Member Posts: 718 (06/29/08 2:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Scott, very nice indeed.. I knew the ISP was going to go up with the smaller cores, but man that was a good jump. That's a very respectible propellant and being able to take the Kn up as high as you are just makes it that much more workable in so many different configurations. It's been a true pleasure watching you tweak this particular blend The scarry thing is you aren't even done with it yet. If you hadn't already named it Orion, you might ahve named it JPB (Just Plain Bitchin) Brent
daveyfire		#12	[-]
Member Posts: 462 (06/29/08 2:59 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Very nice work, Scott. 3% precision on ballistic coefficients is amazing! Looking forward to seeing some of the larger burns.
SmokeinJoe	Orion Test #5	#13	[-]
Member Posts: 1666 (06/29/08 6:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Dave, but wait, it gets better. I Did test #5 today and I still didn't break 1000psi. I ran a 3g 54mm with 3.0625" x 1" cores, .38" nozzle and a Kn of 343-359. Now for the results Burnsim said ( I'd post a photo but don't have the software to convert and save it as a jpeg, as far as I know.) Max Pc 925psi Burn Time 1.56 sec Total Impulse 947Ns Motor Class J-595 Delivered Isp 229 Nozzle Efficiency was set at 85% and Isp* at 172 Max Pc was 944psia. Again, a bit higher than Burnsim due to slag on the nozzle throat. Makes me think of the Old Milwalkee adds. "It doesn't get any better than this" Check it out. I think I read something John wrote once about Oxamide likeing more pressure for better combustion efficiency. Yep! Well I've burned up everything I mixed, so it will be another week or two until the next batch gets mixed and tested. Definetly more to follow here. Oh and by the way, I had built a vacuum chamber to mix the curative in under vacuum. That's why it took me so long to get this mix started. But, I busted my vac guage in the process so it doesn't read too well any more. I think I only got it to pull 22". I got a density of .06059 lb/in^3 with this process. Under 5% of theoretical I think. Better than my ussual.
jsdemar		#14	[-]
Member Posts: 333 (06/29/08 10:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think the max Kn I've tested Formula 13 at was 350, and got about 230 Isp. Looks like about the same as your test results! Without the oxamide, you'd have blown at least two cases. It's interesting to see your burn that started being erosive. My testing showed a threshold of about 2.2 for the mass flux, and a gradual transition to erosive burning. My sim software (in Matlab) adds this to the simulation, giving a slightly regressive curve to an otherwise symmetrical curve in Burnsim without erosive modeling. Looks a lot like your 6-grain burn! Here's a photo of a 5-grain 38mm Formula 13 motor I flew yesterday. 2" grains, 0.5" cores, 0.393" nozzle.
SmokeinJoe		#15	[-]
Member Posts: 1669 (06/30/08 8:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think the max Kn I've tested Formula 13 at was 350, and got about 230 Isp. Looks like about the same as your test results! What was your burn rate on that test? Do you have the data still? Between a Kn of 320 and 360 mine seems to be .22 to .24in/s. Since the grain properties suck I think I'm going to up it to 84.2% solids adding .15% Al and .05% oxamide, then back out almost 1% of DOA, (down to about 1.54%) up the R45M .4%, and up the Tepanol to .5% (it's not been stored well, ever.) That will up the heat a hair along with the Isp*. Hopefully it will be a neglegable effect to the burn rate, but I'm thinking it will raise it .005-0.015 in/s at 950psi. My goal was .27-.28 in/s @ 900psi but I like the lower burn rate now since I see it enables better volume loading.
jmac		#16	[-]
Member Posts: 75 (06/30/08 9:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Scott, check your mail
jsdemar		#17	[-]
Member Posts: 335 (06/30/08 11:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	SmokeinJoe wrote: What was your burn rate on that test? Do you have the data still? Between a Kn of 320 and 360 mine seems to be .22 to .24in/s. One of the high Kn tests was a 38mm, 2grain with a max Kn of 350. It was about 1200 psi max with a burn rate of 0.3in/s or so. I use 60u AP, 83% solids or so.
SmokeinJoe	38/1200 K-1021	#18	[-]
Member Posts: 1690 (07/17/08 3:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I burned Test 6 of Orion yesterday. It was a scaled down motor of a 54mm motor JMAC has commisioned me to build for his 54mm Mongoose and holy crap was it loud! 6g 38mm, 1325Ns K-1021. Propellant length was 23.8125" with .5625" cores, 603.2g of propellant, .485" nozzle, T/P ratio was .75 or .77, I forget, and mass flux around 2.8-2.9. I groosely under estimated the Pc. Burnsim showed a max of 1170psi. It went past 1850psi in the first 1/100 sec, but no huge erosive spike since the pressure exponent is so low. The burn time was a hair quicker but the impulse and motor designation estimates where very close to acctual. The case and nozzle are intact though the liner was a crispy critter near the fwd closure. It was a hell of a motor, but I doubt I'd ever fly it enless I used a bit larger nozzle. I would have used my .5" nozzle but I cracked it at the last launch. Now to get the 54mm motor ordered! Enjoy! Last Edited By: SmokeinJoe 07/17/08 4:03 PM. Edited 1 times.
jsdemar		#19	[-]
Member Posts: 346 (07/17/08 10:11 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	How fast is your thrust sampling rate and pressure sample rate? I think you got an erosive spike but it was too fast to sample. I wouldn't try that again!
Landru13		#20	[-]
Member Posts: 94 (07/18/08 2:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Remove this ad The 38-1200 motors I've run with oxamide don't experience significant erosion until the port/throat is about 1, and then it is a moderately gradual fall and not so much a spike. You can take that core down some more if you use fewer grains Can you post the pressure curve, and what percent oxamide were you using? (pm me if you want to) I use 2-3% oxamide and Fe2O3 as necessary to tailor the burn rate For comparison... 38-1300 (6 4" grains) t/p .9 http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb205/Landru13/38-12002.jpg 38-1300 (6 4" grains) t/p 1.15 http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb205/Landru13/38-12001.jpg 38-2000 (9 4" grains) t/p 1.15 http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb205/Landru13/38-20001.jpg EDIT* I just realized I forgot to include time and pressure #s in the graphs, I'll fix that soon... I've run this stuff up to a Kn of 550, but no data from that test, too afraid to toast the load cell, again. Trying to beat mike fisher to that 38mm L ~Andrew Diehl Last Edited By: Landru13 07/18/08 9:28 PM. Edited 1 times.

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